You may be wondering why I am posting about Radisson's "new and much higher" fares that came along with "all inclusive" on CC, and don't say a word about them here. After all, I know many who are present on this board also post and read CC.

Here's the reason. This is Ngaire's board, and she has respectfully asked us to post only happy posts. I like Ngaire, and want to respect her requests. My posts concerning the 2007 fare structure, and the new SSS "benefits" and the new "discount" structure are not "happy posts." So, they don't belong here.

On the other hand, a board named "Cruise Critic" is one that invites criticism of lines, ships, and cruises. So that is where my present posts about Radisson belong.

In keeping with the spirit of THIS board, I have had many great times on Radisson. And I wanted them to become "all-inclusive" perhaps more than anybody, and now they will be. But I never wanted them to become unaffordable to some of us, or for their pricing to cause others of us to cruise less than before. So now, the only "happy" thing I can say is that I hope the matter of their pricing irons itself out, so that the kind of posts I have been putting on CC will no longer be justified.

Thanks,
Richard

Richard, I have been posting on cc and here at least as long as you, and must take issue with what you are saying about Ngaire's policy of "happy posts". Have you not been really watching cc lately and noticed the many many deletions of posts??? "Happy", in case you don't know it, has nothing to do with one's opinions of a line. It has to do with not personally maligning posters in a way that is offensive. Same exact policy as cc, but it is hidden on cc in their "rules". I have had my own posts on cc deleted because I asked someone to e-mail me to tell me where to find their review of a ship, for gosh sakes! THIS board is all about posting what you feel about a cruise that you have experienced. Just don't personally put down someone who doesn't share it.

Your complaints about pricing will probably be agreed to by about 99% of the regular posters here! God knows, you have campaigned forever about all-inclusive. I have told you time and time again that the lost revenue is going to have to be made up somehow. Now you have what you want. So now live with the prices, or vote with your feet! If you want to do it on Silversea, just check out their prices for a 14 day cruise to Norway in 2007, as that seems a favorite for others for a Ngaire group cruise in 2007. The Wind is doing 14 days for $12,076. Single supplement is 75% and you have to buy air in addition. Voyager is doing it for $8997 with free air. I welcome your comments, happy or not, on this board and I can just about guarantee that it will not be deleted as "not happy". I am not happy either with Radisson's pricing, by the way!

FWIW, I compared the prices for my Voyager cruise on CC and pulled my invoice out with a member of this board today for the same cruise in 2007.

By the time we added the Fuel Surchage into the fare, it was within about $300. per person more for a 10 night cruise. How terrible was that for an increase?

Perhaps some of the itineraries went up more than others, but, everything is up, gas, food, shelter, insurance, labor.

In 2001 my Alaska cruise on the brand new Mariner was $2400 per person. Who'd heard of Radisson back then? Few of us. 5 years later, and 3 days shorter it's about $1600 more. 5 years ago, my house was worth 1/3 of it's current value.

Ya know Richard I've read about your desire for all inclusive and your comments about all things being equal. As far as I could see, now they are.

Here is one more example from Ngaire's postings and from the Silversea website. As much as possible I tried for an apples to apples comparison. I got close, but nothing is exactly the same.

comparing a 7 day Stolkholm-Copenhagen (Radisson) and a Copenhagen-Stolkholm (Silversea).

7/14/07 Voyager Category F: $5,996
7/02/07 Silver Shadow midship Verandah: $6,396

I'm sure in some cases with all things being equal Silversea will come out to be a few dollars cheaper, and in others it will be Radisson.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding you, and what you wanted was for Radisson to be all-inclusive, to keep the level of service you've become accustomed to, and to keep their prices the same as before...never mind the added cost of the booze or even the ever rising fuel costs.

Frankly that wouldn't make good business sense at all!

jhp:

I don't think you understand my frustration here. I personally emailed Radisson about the cost (lost revenue) to Radisson that would result from all inclusive "open bar". They replied with the figures of $15 per day pp. So I then went on what I will admit was a bit of a "crusade" for open bar at a fare increase of $15 per day pp.

But then, when I finally suceeded (?????) in my crusade for open bar, I find that the cost was FAR more than the $15 per day per person I was quoted. And now, two years later, I cannot find the email where that figure was stated to me. (who keeps such things?) And now, I feel like I was made to be the fool! I feel that a corporation used my zeal and affinity for their product to cause me to mislead my fellow cruisers to endorse a change, on false pretenses, that would ultimately be to their detriment in the form of much higher pricing than what was represented to me.

In '03, I approached the matter of a change to all inclusive with Radisson and on the boards based upon these assumptions: (1) at that time, Radisson was losing money because most of their ships were sailing at less that 1/2 full, (2) open bar would be attractive to cruisers, and an increase of Radisson's stated $15 per day pp would not deter many cruisers and would attract many and fill ships, and (3) Radisson could (regardless of other inflationary factors) always undercut Silversea and Seabourn due to the economy inherent in its larger ships.

I believe we all have to be responsible for what we post on boards. I posted that we could have an "all inclusive" Radisson for an aditional $15 per day pp. That is what Radisson represented to me via email. Now, that has proven to be most untrue, and I feel that I have been left "hanging out on the line" due to what was misrepresented to me. In the end, what we have now is a Radisson that has become unaffordable to many who would have really liked it, as I represented it.

At this point, I feel that my zeal for the
Radisson product, and how it might be improved, was used and abused by Radisson's corporation, so that I would mislead present and potential Radisson cruisers as to what an "all inclusive" Radisson would cost. And now, that the REAL cost has been announced, that corporation has made me look like a fool and a liar. And I do not like that at all.

Here in Oklahoma, I've seen and been a part of $million oil deals consumated by a handshake --- and regardless of the outcome, nobody ever denied that the deal was made. It is in this context that I express my disgust at Radisson's representation to me that all inclusive would cost us only $15 per day pp, and the fact that the corporation he represtented totally failed to live up to the deal, while using me as the "intermediary" to taut this deal to my friends.

I have always tried to avoid posting anything negative about the PERSON of any poster, on this board or any other. I hope I never done so. But suffice it to say that it would not be a wise move for Radisson to come knocking at my front door at this moment. I feel that they have made a misrepresentation to me, and that he has used me. It is best for him that we never meet.

Please understand,
Richard

Actually it may very well have only been $15 per person back two years ago. But now even the their costs for buying liquor have most likely gone up. Plus you are not figuring in the rise in prices of fuel, food, soft drinks, docking fees, etc, etc. (when fuel prices rise, so does everything else we consume.)

Two years ago I believe I was paying almost $1.25 less per gallon of fuel. Two years ago I could fill up my van for under $25. Today that cost has doubled, and earlier in the year the figure to fill up my van was around $60.

So his figure from two years ago most likely is accurate. Having owned a business in my previous life, I know that if a business is to survive, they MUST pass on that cost to the consumer or they will go under.

You may be disappointed but it seems your disappointment may be misdirected. Be angry at the rising prices of fuel because that's what is "fueling" the rise in prices of everything else.

No, not at all.

Look at the "distance" between Radisson and Silversea a couple of years ago. Fuel, labor, and everything else has increased in price effecting both lines. But Radisson has increased fares by the greatest percentage. Liquor? almost no inflation at all.

Thanks,
Richard

Well Richard I mentioned this over on CC, but you've gone into more detail here, so I'll respond here as well. :)

I personally wouldn't have expected Radisson to actually only increase their pricing by $15 a day for all inclusive. Keep in mind, he was telling you what it would cost THEM (if I'm reading you right). What company only charges "at cost"? Of course they're going to put a huge markup on that -- that's what businesses do, especially when it comes to liquor. Not only that, certaintly the perceived value of all-inclusive to the customer is much more than $15 per day, which surely factored into how much they increased their prices to add it.

And as others have mentioned, there are various other reasons for increasing their pricing that have nothing to do with the all-inclusive. I'm sure it all factored into their new pricing. Do I LIKE paying more for Radisson cruises? No, of course not! But it seems to me that the reasons for Radisson to be lower than the other luxury lines are now gone, so why should we expect them to be lower? If they can continue to fill their ships at these prices, then what kind of company would they be if they didn't try to charge the highest amount the market will bear? Again, that's capitism for ya.

Also, perhaps the other luxe lines aren't raising their prices as much because, well, they were already kinda high to begin with, whereas Radisson was on the lower end of that market. And now, with the massive increases in cruise passengers as more time passes since 9/11 and more Americans are comfortable traveling to exotic locales, and the word has gotten out about what a great product they offer, they can command this price.

It's all about what the market will bear. I sure hope they don't price themselves out of my reach either! To tell you the truth, I was stunned to find out I COULD afford them to begin with. I'll be sincerely bummed if I have to give them up! But so far, even with the '07 prices, it appears I can still keep them in my vacation plans.

I hate to see you feeling so betrayed and used. I'm sure there were many factors besides what those of us on CC and LCT posted, that led them to their policy and pricing decisions. And you are right -- if they are charging too much, folks won't cruise 'em, and the prices will go down again! :)

LeeAnne:

Look over on CC and you will find most of the info you seek. Just let me say this, Radisson represented to me that the $15 per day pp figure was Radisson's LOST REVENUE from going "open bar". Not their "cost" which would have been much lower.

My email exchange with Radisson happened at a time only about 2 1/2 years ago (how quickly things change in the cruise industry)when Radisson ships were mostly sailing about 1/2 full. My idea of "open bar" was not entirely about you and me, but was also about offering management advice to a company that was clearly headed for "belly up." I liked their cruises so as a retired manager/attorney (must have been good, as I could retire early), I gave my advice. I pointed out that they were giving me a Coke for free in the lounges now, and it would cost them maybe a dime to put some rum in it. So now they are "all inclusive" and what a draw that would be. Well, Radisson quickly brought the subject around to "lost bar revenue" (which rather bothered me, as it showed that Radisson regarded the bar as a "profit center" ala mass market lines), which he stated as $15 per day pp. Well, if that is how he figured it, that is how I presented it to all of you on the boards. Now one of the things that hasn't been very hard hit by the underreported inflation is the prices cruise lines pay for liquor! And if you compare Radisson's '07 prices with their '06 prices, you will see FAR more than $15 per day pp. Much more of an increase than can be attributed to cost inflation.

And, indeed, the difference between the '04 fares and the '06 fares is also greater than cost inflation.

So, I conclude that I was basically used. If you were in my shoes, you would say the same. Here in Oklahoma, we don't use people that way.

Thanks,
Richard

By way of an addendum, let me say if nobody is angry with me for prevously expressing (on the boards) the cost increase of "all inclusive" ( as told to me by Radisson), which proved to be incorrect, then I have no problem. If all understand that I reported to you exactly what was reported to me, I have no problem. Beyond that, a company can charge whatever it wants to for its products or services, and any problems with that will be resolved by competition. Bottom line, I just want to state that I detest misrepresntation, and assure all that I was never willingly a part of any such thing.

Thanks,
Richard

To me this is worth repeating as it summarizes exactly my feelings.

That's the beauty of free market forces.... if people don't come they will have to lower their prices ( if they want to at least cover their fixed costs). And if they are priced at the point where supply meets demand, their prices will stay there. And if they have waitlists and higher demand than expected at these prices, their prices will rise. We might not like it but that's the way it works.

I also agree with LeeAnne that you are being too hard on yourself. I wouldn't in a million years "blame" you for whatever flaws their pricing model has.

Richard, I have a hard time thinking of only one person involved in the fare increases/all inclusive/whatever. I just don't believe anybody remembered your email during this transition time, so I think you can excuse yourself from feeling personal hurt over it.

Richard, Whenever I see your name on a topic I usually respond, since you and I seem to think alike. As we talked on the VTC cruise I began to agree with your ideas. Our discussions were of the constructive criticism variety. Always looking to help RSSC management.
Before the misrepresentation subject is closed, I feel that a response from Radisson is in order. They should either defend the company and their words or admit an error, or any other excuse for the wrongful ststements. Don't you agree ?

Don't you imagine that their statements were valid at the time he made them? I could say it's 9:15 am right now, in an hour would that be considered a wrongful statement?

I'm not defending anybody, I don't even know all those people, but from my outsider's view this poor man is being held to basically impossible standards.

Richard--

I really don't understand where you are coming from and why you feel the way you do.

Why do you assume that 100% of the fare increase is due to all inclusive? If it really was the case, I could understand, at least in part, your sense of betrayal. But clearly, this is logically not the case. Wasn't there fare increases from 2004 to 2005 w/o all inclusive being a factor?

Sure, a PORTION of the fare increases is due to going all-inclusive. I'm sure that Radisson was telling you the truth about the costs. But they didn't say "Richard, independent of whatever increases in our other costs or whatever business strategies we decide on in the future, in the year we decide to go all inclusive, we will only keep our fare increase to $15 a day".

To feel bad because you represented that the cost of going all-inclusive would be "x" and now OVERALL fares will be "y" in 2007 is just simply unwarranted in my opinion.

Regards,
Bill

I edited a bunch of these messages because this turned into what I will not allow. A post about an individual that was negative and attacking in nature. I do not mind anyone expressing their views though so did not want to delete the whole thread. Where necessary I just changed the person to Radisson. If this thread does not make sense in a few spots that is why.

Please do not mention people by name, using a cruise line name in a negative way in general is fine but not an individual person.

Edited as repetitive <img border="0" alt="[c]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />


Everything goes up in price. Look what's happened to housing & gas prices. And hotel rates have soared. An significant increase in cruise rates has to be expected. I don't like it, but the kinds of increases we are seeing here seem at least within reason.
Now if only they'd add a few more 2 for 1's, free air, etc.....

I understand your point but many businesses will start out low and raise prices to where they SHOULD BE when demand catches up.

An example. I'm an artist. A few years ago I decided to teach colored pencil. With no experience I couldn't charge what other colored pencil teachers were charging. I was making approximately 1/2 per hour of what I make now, even though that fee I charged didn't really cover my time well.

As I gained recognition for my art and for my teaching skills I have become more in demand so now can charge considerably more.

I don't have to include travel fees in my costs because they are paid separately by whatever group is sponsering me, but if I did, my prices would have gone up even more to meet the ever rising costs of travel and room and board.

Also Richard consider that years ago Silversea and the others might have been working with a much higher profit margin then they are now, which would explain why Silversea and the others haven't risen as much.

Sorry -- my bad for posting on this particular subject here. I was just a bit upset that, when all inclusive finally came, it was not at the very modest fare increase I was told, (and which I told everybody) but rather it priced me almost out of the market.

Please forget I brought it up.

Thanks,
Richard

Richard, don't feel bad for posting this here. I don't think anyone here minds a lively discussion, even debate, about cruise topics. Nor do I see an insistance on only saying positive things about RSSC. There surely were enough unhappy people posting their opinions when the new tier levels were first released!

And I really think you need to forgive yourself. I promise you, nobody here blames you either for their going AI, or for the price increases. My personal belief is that the increased fares have little if anything to do with the AI. There are more than enough market factors for RSSC to raise their prices that have nothing to do with booze. And of course we'll all do our voting with our feet, right? :)

Richard,

The cruise prices are as low as $2000 for a week - less than $300 per day - all inclusive. All depends on the ship/itinerary/dates. There are some pretty good bargains. None of the cruises I've chosen for example are full price. All are early bookings (Thanks to Ngaire), SSS, OnBoard Discounted and Brown and Keene discounted. You can find a cruise that will work within financial constraints if you are willing to be on a repositioning, Carribbean or FP, Offseason etc. cruise.

Kathy,

They are offering a cruise very similar to your WAVE at around $350 Per diem, after taking into account goldpoints, onboard booking discounts, etc. I think that's a very good price for the itinerary. I'm so bummed that the dates don't work for us!

Maria,

Are you referring to the June 2-12 Voyager cruise from Monte Carlo to Dover? We are considering this one. I believe it's very similar in itinerary and pricing to WAVE.

Thanks, Maria - I didn't even include Goldpoints

Denise,

Yes, that's the one! If it had been a couple of weeks later I could probably do it, but not such luck :( . I love the itinerary and the price is pretty good. I also think the weather at that time of the year is stiil decent in the South of Spain ( although for sure it will be warm).

Dont forget for most of us also free internet, to me that is a big thing. I will never forget the cost of that on Crystal it was a lot.

I think both of those cruises offer great itineraries and pricing. Another enticement was the fact that each cruise is 10 days!

Hopefully, the weather won't be too warm!

Sure wish the timing was such that you could join us, Maria!

Thanks Denise :) !

I drool over all these itineraries that I can't take! Oh well, something to look forward after my life stops revolving around the school calendar.

I feel your pain, Maria. Alan and I have waited a very long time to begin travelling, after we raised both our daughters.

Your time will come and you will savor every minute of your long awaited trips! Promise!

While I personally don't get it (I need I believe 13 more days at sea), Gil does and it is a huge bonus to us as is the one hour of phone useage.

boy do I know that feeling!

After reading all the posts on this subject, I haven't found any challenge to the notion that the 2007 increases are excessive. Afer some analysis, I found them quite modest. I took two typical cruises, the Mariner to Alaska in July and the Voyager in the Baltic in July. Using the early booking fare, which I think most of us use, and a category G cabin, I adjusted the difference in fares between 2006 and 2007 for all-inclusive (Using the $15 per day that Richard got from RSSC)and for the 2006 fuel surcharge, which is included the 2007 base fares. The increases to cover all othe increased costs were 4.1 and 3.4 per cent reaspectively. As those per cents are roughly in line with inflation, I don't see how the increases can be seen as excessive.

I did pretty much the same thing for a Baltics cruise we are thinking of doing in 2007. My results jive with yours. I also cross checked with Silverseas prices for a similar itinerary and their percentage increase was a bit higher--about 5.5%. Plus with Radisson we can get an air credit that is not offered by SS.

Susan

Just one thought - maybe the 2007 prices have been set higher so that RSSC can offer bigger % discounts. Silversea have certainly been actively marketing discounts on luxury cruises - maybe RSSC feels they need the brochure price headroom to do the same. And cruise pricing is all about yield - just like the low cost airlines - if the ships don't fill up, the prices will come down.

Xander, you mean discounts that they offer at a later date, like Silversea does?

Thank God I save my old booklets from Radisson. Since we are leaving in a month on Mar 20th I decided to do an analysis of this trip, as well as last year and next year. Here goes:

All Prices are per night based on a Cat. B Suite on the Mariner to the Western Carribean, and assuming one beer at lunch, one Maragarita at the pool in the afternoon, one martini before dinner, and one drink after dinner.

Price per night 2005 2006 2007
Suite 634.00 635.00 687.00
Fuel S/C 0.00 10.00 0.00
Drinks 15.25 22.50 0.00
Total 649.50 667.50 687.00

So the increases in the fare from 06 to 07 is 19.50 per day, while the increases 05 to 06 is 18.00.

This assumes the increase in bar prices and the fuel surcharges.

As we all can see the increases from one year to the next are not that great.

Just my two cents.

Well great analysis Bill that puts things in perspective!!!!

Honestly Xander Radisson's plan is early booking best price. Does not mean if a cruise is not selling they would not offer some incentive. At this point they have always gone back and allowed anyone booked to have the same offer. It is definitely better to book early. It is a RARE thing to see the late specials.

Whereas Silversea in the past has come out higher prices early and then done the "Silver Sailings" at a later date.

Complete opposites in their marketing strategy.

Bill that truly is an excellent analysis. Thank you!

think it's a much fairer strategy the way
RSSC does it by rewarding those who are willing to put their money down early. I personally would choose RSSC over Silversea for that reason...after all this way I'd get to choose the cabin I prefer and get the best deal...all other things being equal.

On the brochure price (full price) for the Monte Carlo Dover 2006 to 2007 there was a $42.00 per day increase using a Cat. H cabin. No SSS/Goldpoints or EBD. Fare of $5157. for 2006 and $5577 for 2007. But Fuel surcharge is included in the 2007 rate.