We're on VOYTAN, from Barcelona on November 21st, arriving three days early in BCL.

Any thoughts?

Yes, dont take one.

I am going to get on my soap box now. I am not a doctor but common sense dictates this question for me. There may be doctors posting who completely disagree with me on this issue.

I PERSONALLY know six people now who have contracted a terrible disease called Guillion Barre Syndrome. This comes after a flu shot. One of the girls in my office got it after her flu shot and lost one full year of work. It attacks the immune system and completely messed up her face. She could not open her mouth so had to eat soft foods through a straw for months. A past boyfriend could not walk for four months. One of my employees Mother got it. Three of my cleints contracted this too. It is a terrible thing. Usually you recover but it takes about a year.

The doctors say the odds are very slim, like one in 10,000 or similiar odds of contracting this. Since I know six people personally that means I would have to know 60,000 people!!!!

There was an article in the paper today about the shortage of flu vaccines. The number one reason cited was that the manufacturers did not want to manufacture the vaccine any more due to the high number of suits involving complications from the flu vaccine. So I wonder how many cases there really are.

Even if there is a slim chance of getting Guillion Barre is not worth the vaccine. They are pretty useless anyway, the virus mutates and the vaccine only protects you from a few strains that very quickly change and then you have no protection anyway.

In my office anyone that gets the flu shot is in BIG trouble with me and after they hear my employees story no one will take the risk.

I second Ngaire's thoughtful comments...Also, as
one individual who is recovering from an allergic
reaction the Army's annual flu sho (I took one for 25 years in a row--no problem). 18 Months ago
I took our annual shot, went to Rome for Army Biz,
and four days later was a walking/talking drunk...was hospitalized (German & US) hospitals for nearly three weeks..then had two months intensive speech/physical therapy...was sent back here to Atlanta this February to continue to get
regular/twice a week speech therapy. Received it for six months...Now am 90% recovered physically
and 85% speech..I run 50miles/week,swim a mile a day, and play on a tennis team here in Atlanta
(altho I went from a USTA 4.5 to a 3.0 player since my coordination is very slow)...Anthony,
I think you may be in the high risk group but if you are a healthy adult and eat well..my recommendation is to skip it. r/wes

My father had Guillaume Barre disease back in the 60s, so I know only too well what a horrible thing it is.

At that time, there were no flu shots, and it was thought to be a complication of the flu. I haven't really followed the studies implicating the flu shot, so I can't comment about whether your chances of contracting the disease are greater or less with or without. But I admit, I have decided to do without.

I got a flu shot for the first time last year and was so sick afterward I vowed no more. Only the elderly ( over 65 ) are qualified here so I was happy to know I was too young for something!

Wes, gosh, if Ngaire laid the basis, you sure put the icing on top of the argument against having this shot, even if I could. I hardly ever get sick, but I'd rather have the flu than risk G-B disease.

We have a very close personal friend who got that horrible Guillion Barre Syndrome almost 6 years ago; it wrecked his life. He nearly died several times, he is blind now and has several other problems from it. I don't know that it had anything to do with a flu shot, because he got it in the early Spring, but it is absolutely something out of a horror movie.

He is 75 now; his doctor said he had never seen such a severe case of this.

I got my shot yesterday as Mayo called me and told me to come in and get it, however, I did notice on the paper they handed out there was a big article on GBS!!! I think I might be tempted to pass on it, too, but in my case I thought it best to do what they told me to do - and I am NOT 65!!!!!!!! Joanna

The LCT pledge - NO flu shots it might mess with our travel plans.

JoAnna - in future years it will be your call.

The medical establishment (sorry Masaki) continues to stick by "you should get it mantra" but personally I would rather get the flu than risk any of these bad complications. If you are the "one" it hits the odds mean very little.

I also think the way virus mutate the flu shot is not any assurance of not catching the flu anyway.

Nagire: I can understand how strongly you feel knowing 6 people to get GBS!!! I would feel exactly the same way - Joanna

Now here comes the really stupid question. Just what is the flu?? Is it that bad cold with a fever, aches, pains and sore throat I usually get every year around Christmas time? If it's a choice between and the awful GB disease, I will take the flu!

Knock on wood! I've never had a flu shot and I've NEVER had the flu.. Many a bad cold but never the flu!

Karen, like you...I can almost bet on getting a miserable cold sometime in December every year but then I'm usually always healthy the rest of the year.

I have known a few people with G-B disease, and in those cases unrelated to flu shots - and of varying levels of severity. But the Flu itself can cause G-B as a side effeect, so it makes sense that where the viruses are used in the flu shot, even though killed, a few will slip through the cracks.
I don;t think there is any medical product that has NO side effects.
And sometimes the effects can be very unexpected. For example, I know of a case where someone almost died during a blood transfusion due to a severe allergic reaction. It was eventually traced back to the donor having eaten shellfish, and the recipient was very allergic to shellfish.

So everything is a risk-reward decision. We each make our own decision.

I am not a doctor of course but my understanding is the flu can be any virus that makes you ill with flu like symptoms, nausea, diarreah, aches, pains etc. It is a catch all phrase for many different virus strains. There are all kinds of virus that cause a myriad of symptoms and they mutate too and change. Some obviously are worse than others. Flu shots immunize against the most commons strains that are currently around but they cannot cover all strains or if the virus mutates then the immunization may not be effective. Wish a doctor here would pipe in and clarify.

On a recent cruise I was sailing with two doctors. One strongly thought the flu shot was not worth the risk, the other thought it was definitely worth the risk particularly for those "at risk" because they were older or had other health problems. Varying opinions!

Marcie
I am like you - knock on wood - I never get the flu and never get the shot.
But living in Houston I battle sinus problems all year long, especially during the summer. And this year we are still in summer. Breaking all sorts of heat & humidity records. When I left the house at 9:30 this morning it was 86 with 70% humidity & it only got worse during the day. And they don't see any end in sight for 2 more weeks. This is when I should have gone to Norway.
But back to the topic. I avoid the shots. I am definitely with Ngaire on this one.

I understand that the flu vaccine is preserved with mercury. The amount of mercury is very small but it's a potent neurotoxin. I'll skip it.

MarnaLou

Sorry, Masaki and I have been doing errands all night. Ngaire, I can't believe you know 6 people who got GBS! I can't blame you for not wanting to get the flu shot. It IS a horrible disease.

The flu is specifically the influenza virus. There are thousands of viruses out there and most people catch a common cold. The flu is a pretty miserable experience in and of itself, although not as bad as GBS. High fevers for several days, horrible body aches. I had it over 10 years ago and still remember being in bed for 3 days straight and missing my chemistry midterm.

The vaccine only immunizes you against the 3 most common strains for that year. And if you're not in a high risk category, you really don't need the vaccine. Just lots of handwashing and avoid rubbing your eyes and nose.

I'm off my soap box now! :)

I'll add my 2 cents (it could actually be worth less -- or is that worthless? :) ). In the past 6 years that I've been a doctor and recommended thousands of flu shots to my patients, I have seen *one* (1) case of GBS - and the etiology of it was never clearly identified (though the flu shot was not in the running as a potential cause). People also need to understand that Guillain-Barré syndrome can follow ANY viral illness - not necessarily the flu shot or even the flu itself. (see the WebMD short blurb on GBS). I also agree with Gil that medical treatments are an analysis of risk-benefit and that is a very individual decision.

Docs (MDs and DOs) have the struggle of dealing with the individual health of their patients as well as the public health implications of their decisions. While I totally support the individual decision not to get the flu shot based on prior experience or analysis of their own situation, I also believe that the flu shot is effective and safe for the vast majority of the population (based on multiple studies that have been done). The more people that get the flu shot and prevent their catching the flu, the less flu there is in the population and the less likely that the remainder of the population will catch the flu as well. This is especially important in regards to the extremely high-risk population out there (extremely immunosuppressed patients such as our patients on chemotherapy, AIDS, etc.) as well as our moderately high-risk patients such as our elderly patients with chronic diseases such as asthma, emphysema, diabetes, and heart disease.

In many ways, this is the same problem that we have with childhood immunizations. We have some parents that are highly opposed to immunizing their kids for multiple reasons (concerns regarding vaccine safety, worried about vaccine side effects, worried that vaccines are part of a federal plot to track their kids' movements :D ). These parents and their children benefit from the vaccinations that the other kids are getting - simply because with less disease in the population because of the vaccinations, the unvaccinated children are much less likely to catch the disease as well.

An assortment of random thoughts from my tired mind at the end of the day. In the end, to summarize: get the vaccine if you want and you qualify, don't get the vaccine if you don't. But I'll also say that I put my money where my mouth is. Amanda and I get the flu shot yearly.

Masaki

Masaki & Amanda, Thank you for your informed contribution to this subject. It certainly makes sense that when more people are immunized for any disease, the fewer will get it and pass it on to others.

Once again, I gain the most unexpected knowledge from this board.

Betty - I typed my section at around 11 pm my time. I'm surprised I made any sense at all. :)

Unfortunately, I really have no idea how poor aaannnthony who started this thread would be able to get a flu shot if he wanted to while abroad. Not sure why you couldn't get it before you left, aaannnthony?

Masaki

Masaki, thanks for your detailed response!

I asked the question since it appears we will not be able to get flu shots this year because half the U.S. expected supply was contaminated, and, replacement at this late date is not possible. Flu shots are only being offered to those 65+ and the "chronically" ill, and, even those qualifying are not guaranteed availability.

Are the vaccines prepared differently for different parts of the World, or, are they same?

Fran and I have received flu shots for over thirty years. I missed getting the shot one year since I was out-of-town the day they were administered at my employ.....I had four very miserable days during January with the flu.

I think the "flu shot" debate comes down to being a personal decision based on personal experiences! I get one every year, and apart from a sore arm have never (thankfully) had any side effects. What really annoys me, though, is people who think you're actually getting a dose of "the flu" when you get a needle! Not only absurd, but not true, they're not injecting you with "the flu". That's not to say that people are lying when they say they get sick after receiving the shot, but it's not sick with "the flu" (i.e. "I had the flu shot and I got sick with the flu right after").

Speaking of myths, it also drives me crazy when people have the sniffles, or stomach ailments (diarrhea etc.) and say they have "the flu". I think Masaki will back me up when I say that stomach ailments are rarely attached to influenza (although sometimes in children whose high fevers cause vomiting etc.).....influenza is respiratory, and it kills. Thousands of people die from influenza related illnesses every year in Canada and the US. Particularly the elderly, people with weakened immune systems and pre-existing respiratory ailments. I personally suffered a severe case of influenza in 1979, at which time my respiratory system was severely compromised. I was blissfully unconscious for several days, worrying my sister/physicians/caretakers, and awoke without much recollection of the ordeal, but weakened, and at high risk of future chronic bronchitis/pneumonia, COPD, asthma etc. So, side effects be damned, I've had the REAL thing, and I'll do whatever I can to never have it again. Influenza is terrifying.

I'm not disputing Ngaire's personal experiences, or Wes's, both of which are horrible. In Canada flu shots are readily available, I don't know many people who choose not to get them annually (of any age or health circumstance), except those who "don't like them injecting me with the flu"???, and thankfully I've never known anybody to get GB or have an allergic reaction.

And whether or not it's completely coincidental, I have never had influenza again, even WITH my weakened system, since receiving annual flu shots.

So, make a decision based on your own health and experiences.

And have a happy, healthy winter!

Charlene

I just thought I'd add my 2¢ here. I normally get the flu shot every year because in 2 different years I came down with a whopping case of the flu and the doctor told me that the next time it could be pnuemonia (sp?) or menangitis (I, sure as heck, cannot spell).

Well, this year, as a healthy adult I'd feel guilty taking one even if I could find it but DH is a college professor and those kids ... well... he gets exposed to everything. So I looked into the Flumist nasal vaccine.

First off, DH is 50 so he can't have it at all. I have 2 years to go. Second last year they were charging $50 - $60 for it. Crazy. Third, this is the live virus so they really are giving you the flu. Side effects (on the CDC web site) are plentiful and not terribly rare (35% for some) but not deadly.

But our local supermarket with a pharmacy has it this year for $25 and a $3 coupon ($22). I decided to take my chances. I got it on Monday fully prepared to feel miserable Monday night, Tuesday, even Tuesday night. I guess I got lucky. I had NO side effects. I went jogging and biking on Tuesday. I feel great. I just hope this thing "took."

Anyway, it is another option for those ages 5-49 who are otherwise healthy and prepared for some side effects. It doesn't hurt like a shot but it is a little weird to have someone slowly squirting a syringe up your nose.

aaannnthony - as far as I know, there are 2 major manufacturers of the inactivated flu vaccine currently - one being Aventis and the other being Chiron (the one that was shut down). I believe that this is worldwide but my data is from the US so I'm not entirely sure about that. There are only a few manufacturers of these vaccines simply because it's not exactly a high profit area - prices are controlled by the government to a large extent. I regret the shortage that will cause people that qualify for the flu vaccine and have a desire to get it to not be able to get their flu shot this year. If you qualify for FluMist (ages 5-49 and in good health), that may be a good option as Colleen has mentioned already. I was seriously considering having our clinic forego our allocation of flu shot vaccine for our providers/nursing staff and use FluMist for them instead to conserve the supply until I found out that the FluMist vaccination causes you to shed live virus for about a week afterwards which would prevent us from having any patient contact during that time (though it would have been nice to have had an enforced 1 week vacation!)

Charlene - yes, the flu is not technically associated with gastrointestinal symptoms though you can develop mild GI symptoms with the flu as well. There are a number of similar viruses that are out there that do have those symptoms but are usually not as severe as the influenza virus itself. Read what I said above about the FluMist vaccine and the shedding of live virus and keep an eye on your DH. :)

Masaki

Masaki, thanks again for your responses. My last message was b/4 we left for an 8 day repositioning cruise on the Voyager....of the Seas....a ship of RCCL.

We're on Voytan, from Barcelona....if we can get a flu shot in Barcelona, should we consider it....are they all the same "Worldwide"??

Thanks again!

aaannnthony - if you can get a flu shot in Barcelona, that may be an option. AFAIK, they're all the same worldwide.

Masaki